Daniel 8: “Daniel, the Man”

We would have much to learn, I believe if we simply stopped and pondered Daniel himself, Daniel the man who in this chapter is being given a vision of the earth’s future, seeing and hearing angels speak, and being deeply affected by it all.

As we noted earlier, v.1 tells us this was the 3^rd year of Belshazzar. I said then, “This is believed to be about the year 550 BC. Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 BC, so it has been twelve years and Daniel would now be probably right around 70 years old. In the twelve years since Nebuchadnezzar died, Daniel has had to survive through four complete changes of administration with one king taking over by killing his predecessor. Finally, Belshazzar’s father Nabonidus killed the third one and took over, then left his son in charge of Babylon while he tended to other matters in the kingdom.”

So let’s get that in our heads – our friend Daniel is about 70 years old. He has spent his life front and center through what the Jewish people call “the Babylonian captivity.” As a young man, he was ripped away from his home and his family at the fall of his own nation. He has served in high government positions in none other than the city of Babylon, the very epicenter of evil in this material universe. Since Nebuchadnezzar passed, he’s watched four times as one man kills another so he can be king. By this time, no one needs to tell Daniel that human governments are evil.

As we read that Daniel is here allowed to see a vision, let’s not glibly skip along thinking, “Gosh, I wish I was a prophet! Wouldn’t it be cool to be Daniel!” Daniel has lived a very hard life. My personal admiration for him as a man only grows with every study I do in this book, that he could pull off being such a godly man not in Israel, but in the very epicenter of evil – the city of Babel! And now, we see that even the vision he receives is very painful for him, yet he goes on.

What does he see? First of all he sees what we’ve already noted, the evil and violence of human government. He’s certainly seen it swirling around him! Now, what he sees is that, if anything, it only gets worse. He sees the ram butting. He sees the goat violently attacking the ram. He sees the goat’s kingdom divided into four. He sees the little horn rise up to persecute the people of God. Those are awful things to see!

For myself, I definitely feel his pain. One of the things I cannot bear to see is photos and documentaries on the Holocaust. I’m glad for now at least we still have a historical record of that horrific, cosmically shameful chapter of human history. However, I can’t bear to see it. If I do, it takes me three days to shake off the melancholy and downright depression I’m left with. It is painful to see this world’s cruelty, to see the abuse of power and position, to see the violence and murder that invariably goes on. Daniel has seen plenty of it first hand. Now he has to see it looking into the future.

Then, as has happened before, Daniel is allowed to see into the cosmic spiritual battle which swirls around us. He actually sees, hears, and interacts with angels! At this point, I want to pause and note that you and I need to “see” those angels too. What I mean is that what Daniel is seeing is real. It is reality. We are surrounded by angels, both good and bad. We may not be able to see it with our own eyes, but, knowing our Bibles, we can and should be very aware that world is swirling around us. For me, following Daniel around like this does help me to see that world, to be reminded it is there, and that it is profoundly affecting this world we can see.

I’m trying to see all of this through Daniel’s eyes. What I mean is that, as I said above, much of what he saw then as a prophetic vision is for us now a matter of recorded history. We know all about the Medes and Persians and how they ruled the civilized world from about 539 BC until about 330 BC. Then, too, there is no missing the imagery of Alexander as the goat with the prominent horn racing across the face of the earth without touching the ground, crushing the Persian empire, only to die his untimely death in 323 BC. Then his kingdom was divided amongst his four generals, eventually giving rise to Antiochus Epiphanes and his terrible persecution of the Jewish people.

My thought is that, as I read the prophecy, it’s just like, “Oh, yeah. Of course …” However, I have to stop and remember, that is all future to Daniel. He knows no such history. I know the goat’s name is Alexander. Daniel does not. He needed Gabriel to tell him the two horned ram was the kingdom of the Medes and Persians. He certainly needed someone to tell him the goat was the king of Greece. Daniel, having seen Nebuchadnezzar’s vision from chapter 2 (with the silver arms and chest) and his own vision from chapter 7 (with the bear lifted up on one side), may have already suspected the Medes and Persians might soon conquer Babylon (the head of gold/the winged lion). He wasn’t stupid. Since Nebuchadnezzar died, he no doubt could see the Babylonian empire rapidly declining, while the Medes and Persians were at the same time rapidly ascending. Remember too he worked in some very high position in the Babylonian government, so he would be well informed of political developments occurring all around him.

I wonder what it was like to be Daniel and to see his own nation rapidly declining and knowing it was soon to be conquered? Of course he is 70 years old, which has somewhat of a stabilizing effect, but still, there would naturally be the fear of “What will that mean for me?” Kings often simply executed everyone in the conquered kingdom’s government. I feel some of that fear watching America plummet under the current totally crooked leadership, especially as we watch China constantly ascending and knowing Bible prophecy and where this world is headed. The thing is, I don’t know exactly how all of this is going to play out. Daniel, as he sees the vision, and as Gabriel explains it, knows clearly that, as he probably suspected, it was only a matter of time and yes, the Medes and Persians would conquer Babylon.

Interestingly enough, what did it mean for Daniel? We know from chapter 6, when the Medes and Persians did in fact conquer Babylon, he not only wasn’t killed, but instead was elevated to be Darius’s prime minister! That reminds me that you and I don’t have to worry either. Our nation may fall. Someone else, probably China, may conquer us. What will that mean for you and me? The natural response is to fear. However, we must remember the BIG lesson from the book of Daniel: The Most High rules in the nations of men! The God we trust today will be there in all our tomorrows – even if that includes our nation falling around us. “I’ve been young, and I’ve been old, yet, I’ve never seen the children of righteous begging bread.” Like Daniel, even in a falling nation, whether his Judah as a young man, or his Babylon as an old man, the Lord could always assure him, “The plans I have are to do you good and not to harm you.” Our world may fall apart, but our God still stands strong, wise, powerful, good, and kind to us in it all. Daniel could trust Him. So can we. As David Jeremiah said in his book Hope, “We find true stability in this unstable world only when we trust in God” (p.69).

So, as we read, let us be reminded that to Daniel, basically this entire vision concerns future events. As I pointed out in an earlier post, it is cryptic in many ways even still to us, but, as we read, we need to remember that for Daniel, as he describes it later (v.27), it was to him “beyond understanding.”

This actually brings me to my last point, that I think there is much to learn simply from Daniel, the man. Remember Daniel is just that – a man. He may be a prophet and a man of great faith, but he is still just a man. As all of these events swirl around him, he isn’t made of cardboard. He doesn’t somehow just float over it all in ethereal bliss. Remember from chapter 7 how that vision affected him. He said there, “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this” (v.15,16). He concluded chapter 7 saying, “I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself” (v.28).

Now, in chapter 8, given this second vision, he says, “While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man (Gabriel) … As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate …” (vv.15-17). He concludes this chapter saying, “I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for several days … I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding” (v.27).

I love how in chapter 7 he said, “I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this” (v16), then here in chapter 8 he says concerning the ram, “As I was thinking about this …” (v.5), then he adds, “While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it …” (v.15). I love Daniel’s curiosity. He wants to understand. If there is someone around he thinks can help, he goes and asks them! When it comes to the things of God, may we all be found like Daniel – incorrigibly curious! We are only finite, created beings, limited people, just like Daniel, but our God is the Creator Himself – infinite and utterly beyond our understanding. 

We are like a blind man, lying on a beach in Virginia, and longing to know all there is about America. As he lies there, he may know there is the sand beneath him, he hears the sound of the surf behind him, and perhaps birds chirping. However, how could he ever dream of what the very expanse of America holds, the mountains and valleys, the plains, the rivers and lakes, the woodlands and so much more? He could wander this country for literally millennia and still not know it all. Then assume one day he suddenly receives his sight! He would have to start all over and spend more millennia just to take in the sights of every square inch of this vast land! However, realize his task is much simpler than seeking to know God. We know so little, really – only what He has chosen to reveal to us – and just to truly know all the Bible has revealed to us about Him is probably the task of millennia in itself.

Fortunately for us, the incomprehensible God has, in fact, revealed much to us, but that knowledge will only be granted to those who actually seek it. It should come as no surprise that Daniel learned much. He sought it. “My son, … if you call out for insight … and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding” (Prov. 2:1-6). May we all be students of the Word and seek the Lord like Daniel did.

However, let us note too, that the understanding of God and the things of God may not always leave us skipping down the church aisle singing praises. To see the truth here may be very ugly and devastating. While others console themselves about the “inherent goodness of man,” we see instead the awful cruelty that pervades the homes and communities and businesses and governments of this world. Like Daniel, as we understand our Bibles more and more, we’ll see in this world less and less of the gold and silver and more and more of the voracious beasts!

See how it affected Daniel. We see him at the end of this vision “exhausted and ill for several days.” That is Daniel, the man. If you and I would know his faith, we should expect that, one way or another, we’ll also know his sorrow. We saw these things back in chapter 7 and here we are again. Jesus was “a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.” I think we need to embrace what is perhaps a more mature expectation of faith – that, yes, it will bring us great blessing – love and joy and peace – but, “it is enough for a disciple to be like his Master.” If we would know God’s heart, then how could we see the brokenness of this, His beautiful world, and not know grief?

Yes, Daniel is a real man. He’s real like you and me. May we not get so fascinated with the prophecies he recorded that we fail to learn all we can from the man himself.

Daniel 8: “Realistic”

Chapter 8, like chapter 7, is highly instructive to us. In these prophecies  of Daniel, we are allowed to see the entire sweep of human history from 605 BC to the end. Essentially, we are allowed to see what only God and angels could possibly know. It is interesting to me that, in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream from chapter 2, he saw that sweep of history as precious metals, starting with the golden head. Isn’t that just like us? We want to think we’re very important, that what matters in life are the things that sparkle. However, what does Daniel see? Beasts. From what the godly man Daniel sees, what do humans become when you give them power? What are their “great” kingdoms? Beasts.

Step back and think about it. In chapter 7, what came up out of the sea? Four beasts (v.3). In v.5, the second beast was told, “Get up and eat your fill of flesh.” In v.7, the fourth beast was “terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.” In v.8, the little horn arises first by uprooting three other horns, then in v11 we see it “waging war against the saints.”

Violent and destructive. Government without God

Now what do we see in chapter 8? We first see the two horned ram and what is he doing? “Butting to the west and the north and the south.” Note it says in v.4, “He did as he pleased and became great.” Notice the “he became great.” We’ll come back to that. In v.5, the goat with the prominent horn races across the face of the earth and what does he do? “I saw him attack the ram furiously … shattering his two horns, knocked him to the ground and trampled on him” (v.7). If anything, the goat is even more violent than the ram had been. Note again it says, “The goat became very great …” (v.8).

Finally, we see the little horn. It “started small but grew in power.” So we see again, the kingdoms of this world “become great,” They “grow in power.” And what do they do with that “greatness?” What do they do with that “power?” See what the little horn does: “It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low … It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground” (vv.10-12).

Government without God is evil. Men without God may, under common grace, manage to do and be some good things, but there lingering under it all is their true nature: evil. As Jesus said, “They are of their father the devil, and the lusts of their father they will do. He is a liar and the father of lies. He was a murderer from the beginning. Like a roaring lion, he roams the earth, looking for someone to devour.”

In the book of Esther, the king and his prime minister agree to slaughter an entire people group of their citizens, then sit down to drink (3:15). Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union reportedly murdered millions of his own people, as did Mao Tse Tung in China. It is reported that as many as fifty million people died under and due to Adolf Hitler.  James said, “Then, after (evil) desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death” (1:15). So governments become “great” and what does it get “we the people?” Murdered. As governments become great, what do they do? Attack each other. Always fighting. Always killing.

It’s interesting that the only government ever assembled by men who were at least acknowledging God was a government designed to be what? Restrained. The framers of the American Constitution had the Biblical wisdom to know that human government must be restrained. They built their system of “checks and balances” precisely because they knew the only alternative would end up being one form of tyranny or another.

As I have observed before, one problem us older American Christians have is that we got to grow up in a country where we believed the government really was trying to do us good and to protect us. Our government even told us we had rights – the “inalienable rights” of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” For us, it is a very deep heartache to see what our government has become. More and more they suppress those “rights” and we can rest assured, it is only a matter of time before they start killing those of us who don’t buy their lies. That is what we see all down through recorded history and it is precisely the picture Daniel is seeing, even as he is given a vision of what the world would become.

As ugly and dark as it may appear, we Christians, of all people, ought to embrace realistic views of this world. It is right there in our Bibles. Government without God is, has been, and always will be violent, warring, and murderous. It is evil. However, we also know why they’re so evil, why that is the direction all human government heads. “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Eph. 6:12).

The true problem is not a political party or a few particularly evil people. The problem is spiritual.  The problem of evil human government is simply an expression of the cosmic spiritual battle that is raging in the universe around us. There may be some things we can and should do here on earth. Christians should vote, even if it is obvious the elections are being rigged. Some Christians should pursue careers in government. Even if we know it is a “hive of scum and villainy,” there can still be the Daniels and Esthers, the Josephs and Nehemiahs, those who attain high positions in government and from there sincerely try to do good in this world. However, we of all people need to be the ones praying. We of all people should be the ones living a life of love and a life of truth, so that, even as others suffer under their unjust government, perhaps they can see a difference in us and maybe even “come and ask a reason of the hope that is in you.”

We simply need to be realistic, then live our lives under God even as a very wicked world swirls around us, even as nations rise and fall and one evil person after another becomes “great” only to turn and use that “greatness” to do even more evil.

The good news is that, even in this wicked world, our God is still working “all things together for our good” (Rom.8:28) and the day will come when the “stone cut without hands” (Dan. 2:34) will smash this world’s evil governments and establish His kingdom of righteousness.

Let’s be realistic about what this world truly is even as we know Psalm 33:20-22:

“We wait in hope for the Lord;

He is our help and shield.

In Him our hearts rejoice,

for we trust in His holy name.

May Your unfailing love rest upon us, O Lord,

even as we put our hope in You.”

 

Daniel 8: “Lesson Learned”

Here’s my fairly literal translation of these verses:

¹In the third year to the reign of Belshazzar the king, a vision appeared to me – me, Daniel – after the [one which] appeared to me in the beginning. ²And I saw in [the] vision and it was in my seeing and I [was] in Shushan the Citadel which [is] in Elam the province and I saw in [the] vision and I was upon the Canal of Ulai. ³And I lifted up my eyes and I saw and behold, one ram, one standing to the faces of the canal and to it [were] two horns and the two horns [were] high and the one [was] higher from the other and the higher one going up in later. ⁴I saw the ram butting westward and northward and southward and all of animals did not stand to its faces and none ones delivering from its hand and it did according to its desire and became great. ⁵And I was considering and behold, the he-goat of the goats [was] one coming from the west upon the faces of the all of the earth and not [was] one touching in the ground and the he-goat [had a] horn conspicuous between its eyes. ⁶And it came to the ram with the two horns which I had seen standing to the faces of the canal and it ran to it in the rage of its power, ⁷and I saw it reaching beside the ram and it was furious against it and it struck the ram and it shattered the two of its horns and there was not power in the ram to stand to its faces and it cast it to the ground and it trampled it and there was none delivering the ram from its hand. ⁸And the he-goat of the goats became great and when it was mighty the great horn was broken off and four conspicuous [horns] came up instead of it to the four winds of the heavens, ⁹and from one of them came a little horn and it became very great upon the south and upon the east and upon the Beautiful [Land]. ¹⁰And it (f.s.) became great until the host of the heavens and it (f.s.) cast down [to] the earth from the host and from the stars and it (f.s.) trampled them. ¹¹And until the prince of the host he (m.s.) made great and from him was lifted the regular [sacrifice]and he was cast from the place of his sanctuary, ¹²And it (f.s.) was given upon the regular [sacrifice] in rebellion and it (f.s.) cast down truth earthward and it (f.s.) did and it (f.s.) thrived. ¹³And I heard another holy one speaking, and [the] first one [was] saying to a certain one, “Until when [is] the vision of the regular [sacrifice] and the rebellion desolating to give and sanctuary and host trampled?” ¹⁴And he said to me, “Until the evening morning two thousand and three hundred  and [the] sanctuary will be made right.” ¹⁵And it was in my seeing, I, Daniel, the vision, and I was seeking understanding and behold, one standing before me like appearance of a man. ¹⁶And I heard a voice of a man between [the] Ulai and he called and he said, “Gabriel, give understanding of the vision to this [man].” ¹⁷And he came beside my standing and in his coming I was terrified and I fell on my face and he said to me, “Understand, son of man, because the vision [is] to [the] time of [the] end.” ¹⁸And he [was] speaking to me and I was in a deep sleep upon my face earthward and he touched me and he caused me to stand upon my standing. ¹⁹And he said, “Behold, [I am] declaring to you what will be in the last end of the indignation because [it is] to [the] appointed time of [the] end. ²⁰The ram which you saw with the two horns [is] the kingdoms of the Medes and the Persians, ²¹And the shaggy he-goat [is] the king of Yavan (Greece) and the great horn which [was] between its eyes, it (m.s.) [is] the first king. ²²And the one (f.s.) being broken, and four stood up in its place, four kingdoms from the nation will stand up, and not in its power. ²³And in the latter part of their kingdom, when the rebels [are] finished, a king will stand up, strong of faces and one understanding intrigues. ²⁴And his power will be mighty and not in his power and he will destroy astonishingly and he will do and he will destroy mighty ones and people holy ones. ²⁵And upon his cunning, he will cause deceit to prosper in his hand and in his heart he will make great and in peace he will ruin many and upon [the] Prince of princes he will stand and without a hand he will be broken. ²⁶And the vision of the evening and morning which was told, it [is] true, and you, seal up the vision because [it is] to many days.” ²⁷And I, Daniel, was spent and I was sick [for] days and I rose and I did the king’s business, and I was horrified upon the vision and not understanding.

I find chapter 8 similar to chapter 7 in that one really must study the entire chapter as a singular unit. As in chapter 7, the first half relates a vision of Daniel, while, in the last half an angel interprets it for him (and us). So there is no point in spending much time pondering on the first half without first going ahead and hearing what the angel has to say in the last.

Also, like chapter 7, I personally feel like the historical details are, for the most part, so patently obvious, I am not really interested in spending a lot of time recording all of that. If anyone wants to study the historical fulfilment of this chapter, there are literally mountains of commentaries to consult. As Gabriel explains, the two horned ram was to be the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, while the goat was to be Greece. The first king is obviously Alexander the Great and, upon his death, the kingdom was divided amongst his four generals. Out of this divided kingdom came later the Syrian king, Antiochus Epiphanes, who certainly pre-figured the Antichrist himself in his terrible persecution of the Jewish people. Those Jewish people recorded the events of that time in the book of I Maccabees – all of which is thoroughly documented and available for the reading.

For myself, I am more interested in recording my thoughts as far as the practical lessons we can draw from this chapter. To that end, I want to note first of all that, having labored through the Hebrew text, I must admit there is definitely a cryptic element to the entire chapter. What I mean is that, even in translating the text into English, many decisions have to be made what to do with odd elements in the Hebrew. Having made those decisions and having produced an English translation, many of those cryptic elements appear clear, when in reality they are not. For instance, in v.14, the angel tells Daniel, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings …” In Hebrew it says literally, “Until evening morning two thousand and three hundred …” Note that in the Hebrew, both “evening” and “morning” are singular. By translating it as “evenings and mornings,” one easily understands it as referring to days. 2,300 days. But that isn’t what it says. It says “2,300 evening morning.” Even if we translate it as “evenings and mornings,” one wonders why not just say “days?” Granted the allusion to “evening and morning” calls back to the Creation account in Genesis 1, but then we’re back to the question of why then are they singular

Another example is in vv.10-12. As I offered the literal translation above, vv.10,11 in Hebrew say something like, “And it (f.s.--the little horn) became great until the host of the heavens and it (f.s.) cast down [to] the earth from the host and from the stars and it (f.s.) trampled them. ¹¹And until the prince of the host he (m.s.) made great and from him was lifted the regular [sacrifice]and he was cast from the place of his sanctuary.” I had to insert the “f.s.” and “m.s.” to indicate what is feminine singular and what is masculine singular. In Hebrew, a horn is feminine, so those references are clearly back to the little horn, but then the switch to masculine singular seems odd. From our vantage point today, people are quick to see in these verses allusions to Antiochus’s violence toward the temple and the priesthood and those allusions may be valid, but, the reference to casting “down to the earth from the host and from the stars” seems a closer allusion to Satan’s fall as reported in Isa. 14:12-17 and Rev. 12:3,4. On the other hand, the passage doesn’t completely fit well with either. Imagine hearing it from Daniel’s vantage point, and then it would seem even more cryptic.

One more example (and there are many more) would be in the references to “the end.” In v.17, the NIV translates it as “the time of the end.” In v.19, the NIV refers to “what will happen in the time of wrath,” and “the appointed time of the end.” Finally, in v.26, it refers to “the distant future.” We like to see in such references the literal “end” or “the last days” as they are called in the NT. However, if the prophecies specifically concerned Antiochus and his evil, that happened some 2,200 years ago.

There are odd constructions like that all through the chapter.

What do we learn from this observation? I think it would teach us not to be too quickly dogmatic about our interpretations of Bible prophecy. Jesus told His disciples, “I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe” (John 14:29). Notice He said, “so that when it does happen…” There will probably always be some element of prophecy which we simply cannot understand until it is fulfilled, but, what Jesus is saying is that that is the point – so that when it happens, we will believe.

When it happens. That means it’s more important for us to know our Bibles, to know what the prophecies say, than necessarily to get all dogmatic about any particular interpretation of those prophecies. It means we should never forget that the prophecies themselves do contain that cryptic element. In other words, there are and always will be elements in a text like Daniel 8, where we all scratch our heads and admit we really aren’t sure what this means. That is not all bad. Even Daniel himself was left not understanding this vision, though he had none other than the angel Gabriel to explain it to him! Particularly when it comes to prophecy, we need to be content to learn that which is clear enough, while humbling leaving unanswered questions simply as that – unanswered questions. We can rest assured, if we know our Bibles, and if we are alive “when it happens,” it will then be patently obvious to us.

Part of the reason why the Jews missed Jesus at His first coming was because they had read the OT prophecies and seen only those references to Him as a conquering king. All those many references to “the suffering servant” seemed cryptic to them, so they just disregarded them. How could the Messiah be both a conquering king and a suffering servant? Had they honestly strove to know those Scriptures (like Isaiah 53), even if they didn’t understand them, then when Jesus did come, perhaps they would have been able to see Him as clearly as we do now.

To me, lesson learned from the Jews and from the text itself here in Daniel 8 is first and foremost to simply know our Bibles. There is nothing wrong (and everything right) about trying to piece it all together and to understand the prophecies as they seem clear enough. However, especially since there is always that cryptic element, we need to hold more strongly to the Scriptures themselves than we do to our “prophetic outlines.”

Lord, help us to know You first of all, to know our Bibles the best we can, then to be ready, as Your prophecies are fulfilled, to acknowledge what You have done, to believe, and to praise You in them.